The overlap between type and UX design with Dalton Maag’s Bianca Berning

Tom:  Welcome back everyone,  great to have you listen to the show today, I’m talking to Bianca Berning , from Dalton Maag, she exists in the wonderful world of typography and type design. And we’re going to be talking today about how UX and type overlap and how us as UX teams and then her as member of a typography design team, can, can work better more effectively. With some new stuff that’s coming to the market. And just in general, so over to you, Bianca, can you give us a bit of a background to you, you know, your job title and what you do over at Dalton Maag? 

Bianca: Thanks for inviting me and thanks for having me here. So  I’m the Creative Director of Dalton Maag and does mark is a small typeface design studio based in Brixton. Usually not, not quite at the moment because we all working remotely still. But yeah, we are usually right in the middle of Brixton, which is, it’s just a really lovely place to be.

We are around 50 people at the moment, which is quite large for a studio that just does typefaces. It’s not really large in the biggest sense when you compare it to like bigger agencies or graphic design studios. But in our world, we are quite large, which means that we are often getting assignments that are quite larger as well. So we do a lot of custom typefaces for bigger brands, but then we also do fixed like local refinements for smaller studios where we just like cast our eye over whatever they came up with and just like make minor adjustments to this. We also have our own library of fonts and we sometimes make modifications for those of those typefaces as well for clients.

I’m a creative director now I started as a typeface designer, like 10 years ago there, before that I did my masters in typeface design and Reading, which was the first time I came over to, to the UK to live here. And before that I was a graphic designer and I studied in Germany and Netherlands and Norway. 

Tom: Nice. Well, you’ve travelled around way more than I have. There’s some fantastic work going over your studio. So that definitely would recommend people could check out the website. I’m sure they recognise some of the bespoke work you’ve done for brands. Today we’re going to talk about three different topics we saw a blog post you posted a while back and and shared it , which led to this conversation. And, you know, I think that the few things you talked about had popped up on our radar previously. As a kind of  UX team, but with technical foundations, you know, I used to be a designer and front end dev, and we kind of maybe care more than most kind of UX teams do, about like how to get type working and, you know, where the boundaries lie between kind of design and implementing, you know, design and type based design on a kind of website or a product. So the things we’re going to talk about today, are variable fonts, colour fonts. And I think you’re going to go into a bit more detail about kind of type anatomy, which is something that’s like maybe relatively new to me as well. So when it makes sense to start with kind of the concept of a variable font and like what that is and how that’s kind of like new in, in the world of dev and type design.

Bianca: Yeah, absolutely. So variable fonts have been introduced to the public in 2016 in September, 2016 as part of the conference, “AtypeI which is going on in Warsaw at the moment it was kind of like something that existed for a while in the typographic world  and the way we have been designing digital typefaces has always kind of like been with these kind of like parameters in mind. So basically what a variable font does that like our usual files don’t do is that it can combine different files at different like members of the same typeface family into like one file, which obviously is very good for web performance. It makes things faster on the web, but also it gives you a little bit more typographic freedom.

The way it works is basically, if you have your website and you choose to have like three different points on it, like a regular, a bold for emphasis, and then a black for the headlines, if they’ll pop up the same family, it’s quite likely that you can combine them into a variable font, which makes it easier to serve those fonts.

So every time you have a custom font, every person who has to go to a website like these points have to be downloaded because they’re not, available on their systems. So there’s always like this little bit of a lack of time, which is , the kind of thing everyone is like really worried about because you know, people who don’t have the biggest attention span, so they walk away.

So, you know, we were all kind of like, concerned about how can we make the fonts? Smaller fonts are not big, like the file size. If you compare it to like images of videos. It’s relatively smaller, but we wanted to make it a little bit better. And the whole, very performance thing was driven by Microsoft and Google, Apple, and Adobe.

And they invited some experts from a few typeface studios along as well. So I was part of this working group that worked on this, specification. Yeah, we introduced it in 2016. Everyone was super excited. We all meet every year and talk about typefaces, but yeah, it was announced there and we were all very excited. I’m so excited that everyone started experimenting with variable fonts really quickly to see what we can do. It goes beyond just like having a regular in the bold and heavy in one file. So. You can do like several other things with it. What we kind of like forgot, I guess, was to talk to actual designers about this are people who use fonts. And so this actually hasn’t really sunk in that much. Not, not as much as you would expect five years later anyway, you can see people start using this a lot more in like the last year or two. And I just expect that this will be the norm. This is how we’re going to sell fonts in the in the future. 

Tom: Because traditionally you would, you know, so you want to have like a bunch of different ways. You mentioned three there, but we, we brought some website projects before we ended up with way more, which is bad design from all our point of view. But this gives you a lot more to play with. Right? Cause you can, you can use all the weights of, of any kind of typeface they’re like, and it’s all available to you kind of programmatically, I guess, is the way you might describe it. 

Bianca: Exactly. So the way you would just implement it in the CSS is you serve this one font file and link it, and then you find an instance on the access that you want to choose. So if you, for example, if you have a weight axis, then your variable font that goes from thin to black. You have access to every white imagery. And that kind of like goes beyond the traditional ways, like the regular and the bolds. So if your red colours a little bit light, but your medium is a little bit too dark. You want something in between. You just like find the instance on this axis and numerically, you just like point to it. And then you can, you can use that one, which again is like something that actually is. Since we are a little bit of creative freedom, which should be quite nice because you know, you’re not restricted to what the type of designer it makes available anymore.

Tom: Great. To have more control on that kind of designer, is that maybe a little bit controversial in some circles to like, not be specifying, how people should use this, this font.

Bianca: I think some people were a little bit hesitant upfront, but actually it probably works out. To our advantage as well, because historically people would try and get there anyway. So if, you know, if the regular is too light, they will outline it and it a little bit, or just not nice. If it’s too wide, they would squeeze it.

If it’s too narrow, then I would try and expand it with the design stuff where all of these things are. Not nice to look at. If you’re a designer, you’re obsessed with those kind of details. And you can see when, when something has been just a little bit squeezed, we have a little bit more control because we now are kind of like set the boundaries of what is possible.

So as I said, we can look at things and make sure that every right on this scale or this axis is actually going to look good. So we can, we can kind of like control that a little bit better. We can control things like the width as well. So you don’t have to force squeeze things anymore because the, if the type basis with axis, you can just like axis everything from super narrow to super wide, other axis that are in the specifications are optical size, which is their type of graphics, superpower, and kind of axis. What it does is basically it adjusts the type in, or in very small ways for different sizes that you use them in. So if you want to use the same type phrase for the head of body copy and captions, you can do that. And if it has an optical size axis, it would just make compensations.

So, in larger sizes, you can have like a bigger contras. So yeah, optical size is one. When we have to access that always confused, even in the design softwares, it’s sometimes. Correctly implemented italic and slant, the slant axis basically, or lets you combine uprights and italics into the same spot point file. And you can like access everything in between. So if you feel like the angle is too steep, You can just like access a different one.

Tom:  I guess, often we’ve chosen the font that works well as a heading. And then obviously that doesn’t necessarily work well as body copy. So I guess it’s a great cause it allows you to kind of be a bit more, it just kind of broadens what you can do with it, with a typeface you know, you can use it in lots of different parameters, lots of different instances. And then you don’t have those kinds of problems traditionally of what a kind of a certain weight or size or, or embed you’ve got in there limits you too.

 And just to kind of design process from your side when you’re making variable font does that cause any problems for you or does it make it easier for you? I mean, I don’t know much about kind of type design. How has the process differed by, this or hasn’t it changed at all? 

Bianca: It barely has changed. So that the only thing that really changed was how we are engineering the fonts, but we’ve always kind of, if we designed bigger families, we would always design it in the same way, whether it’s static or variable fonts, it’s by just like looking at the outer extreme. So if we have, for example, a font family that has a width axis and the weight axis, so it’s like, you know, a narrow light to expand a black, we kind of like look at those extremes and then the other two.

So we have like a design space that is working and we would design the outermost extremes and then kind of like mechanically interpolate, the rest. And then see if we need to have are called temples in there. So, uh, you know, if you’d like mechanically interpolate between like black and Finn is quite a big range, so it’s quite likely that things look distorted in the middle. Regular medium, which is like things that you would use in body copies of any really need to be a little bit more refined. So often we just like insert a middle master in there to make sure interpolation works fine. But yeah, that was exactly the same for static fonts as it is for regular performance. They found a shortcut. It’s not going to take a whole year and want to get my time. Unfortunately it’s not, it’s not the case. So that’s quite a lot of work. 

Tom: Yeah. And so the kind of, we sort of touched on implementation already, but nothing really changes then from the kind of development point of view, like extended bedding, you know, one, one call off to an embedded file.

And then you just control that, like you said earlier of CSS. So that actually the implementation from a developer’s point of view, doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter much. They’re just more than they can do with what’s available. 

Bianca: Yeah. It might even be a little bit more simpler if you can just like surf  fonts file and then just define different instances for different use cases. So there’s one incident for body copy.

 Tom: okay. And then, yeah, I was looking at some of the examples you’ve shown online and came across ones where, and you touched on the idea again. Where people are kind of pushing boundaries a bit. So obviously you’re talking about going from, you know, different whites than through to black and in between the lack of the stuff on the regular things that you change. But there’s also some kind of people out there who’ve got a bit different than creating a new variable fonts that like to do weird, crazy, interesting stuff.

Bianca: We talked about the axis that, you know, are kind of like the most, most used ones. And they made it into the specifications where there’s a specification about everything that is related to phones. It’s called the open type specification and variable principles, basically like an addition to the existing specifications.

And we defined those five axis stuff we talked about as like the standard axis But apart from that, you can also have custom axis. The benefit of this is that you can go absolutely crazy. And you can just like make up your own use case and typeface family that is completely free from all kinds of boundaries.

The drawback is that obviously applications and browsers. Support the axis that are in the specification. So it might be like natively supported by every browser. But if you have control over these kinds of things and you, you know, you have the knowledge to actually control this in the background, then customer point axis are like really quite interesting.

The kind of like examples that I have, like a top of my head, like one of them is a fault that we recently. Released earlier this year, it has a melt axis. So this is something that one of our designers came up with. He used to be a student of typeface design in the Hague, in the Netherlands and in the Netherlands, they have these chocolate letters at, or, Sinterklaas which is just like a holiday in the beginning of December.

And one of those popular gifts is like this, this big chocolate black letters. And in his course, they often do their own version of these letters. So they, they actually, you know, melt the chocolate, make the forms, then just like make, make these letters themselves. And he kind of like had this idea for like a really squishy font.

So it’s just like, it’s a very friendly one. It doesn’t have any edges in there. Everything’s like rounded. It’s really friendly. And he said like, wouldn’t it be lovely if we could make this melt as well? So we kind of like leaned into this and what we decided to do is just like, take the inspiration from the chocolate betters and kind of like apply something that would seem as if the status would melt in the sun.

So it kind of like expands and it’s sometimes like clothes a little bit into each other’s I think interesting bit about like these custom. For axis it’s just like that you can link it to any kind of data. So for example, if you have an installation and you want to the font to relate to like the number of people in the room or the noise level in the room, you can kind of like source this like life data from like microphones or just like counters.

And then you can just like link it to the font and manipulate the access. So if you want it to Just like grow and grow and grow and grow and grow. The more people are in the room. You can just like have to stay there and do this same for things like temperatures. So, you know, we live in London. It’s quite a great, not today, but it was quite grainless at the time you mentioned they have like advertising, that contract is responsive to the weather, I kind of like tries to lift your mood by changing. 

Tom: So fascinating! And I think my exposure to this before I’d been at the kind of base level stuff he talks about there and how much that would bring to the way I’ve been kind of technical improvements there. But that’s amazing to even think about how this looks in a kind of.

You know how you might interact directly with it, with a font now, because it’s just something that’s impossible right now you see lots of, kind of fancy type around the web, doing all sorts of crazy things, but that’s being hacked together or it’s just being, you know, created in after effects. So some, some program where you’re manipulating a font and then spitting out a video that says essentially the control of that within your environment, you know, on your screen, on your phone, on your headset and they can, pull over when you’re walking around with an event or whatever, that’s huge. I didn’t realise that the potential scope for what you could do with it, especially if, like you say you have that control over, like you can do whatever you want with this fall. Now I’m assuming you can technically implement that in some way.

Bianca: I mean, it might be, yeah. I’m a typeface designer obviously my kind of like goal was always to make reading easier. So if I think about like the difference between my eyes and my dad’s eyes, he really like, if he tries to read something on his phone and he really has to zoom in a lot, it’s really uncomfortable.

He’s never going to read like all the texts on any kind of like handheld device, because it’s just like, his eyesight is not that great anymore. So what if you know, when you, when you get a new device and you have to set it up after you set your fingerprints up and all kinds of like personalised preferences that you already have in your phone, what if it took you through like two steps where you just like, ask the question, do you prefer this?

Or do you prefer like, no, going to the eye doctor? Like, is this better or is this better? And like, based on these recommendations, it would just like apply some kind of privilege to like everything that involves texts on your phone and just makes it better for you to read because we. Like, they’re always like these guidelines, it’s just like use or sensor font in that, you know, doesn’t do this, it doesn’t  have contrast. But at the end of the day, it really depends on each person, not just the eyesight, but also references on like, what is good for them. And then maybe it’s not just the person itself might be the environment like maybe, or maybe the typography should change on the tube and in like, you know, no daylight, relatively dark.

And if I step out into like bright day, like maybe it has to adjust a little bit in the background in order to make things a little bit more or, you know, wait a boat for us. And I think this can go beyond, you know, dark mode kind of things, which is a whole different topic by itself. But I think there’s like so much potential and we didn’t even really start with, I don’t know, topography on the web or on devices. I think like everything we did until now, few slide, just taking whatever we did for books for like actual physical, like printed books. I just applied to the web because we knew what we were doing because we were doing it for 500 years now.

So we were like, okay, well, this is fine. It should work on the screen. Why, shouldn’t it work on the screen? But then, you know, if you read the statistics that people don’t like to read on screen, they are not as focused. They don’t remember as much. So obviously this is not, you know, it’s not the best that it could be. And I think there’s a lot of potential there. 

Tom: Yeah. And it’s amazing how small tweaks can really change your experience there. And most people don’t realise that and obviously we probably wouldn’t spend the time going into settings or doing the research to find out what works best for them.

But like you say, you know, if a kind of, if a device can guide you through that or offer some kind of reaction to the scenario you’re in, like you are creating something that’s going to work a lot better for a lot of people. And the accessibility thing is huge, right? I mean, you know, things have to work for all different types of people.

What do you think is the kind of next big things that are going to happen in this over the next, you know, months or, year or so? Is there anything big coming up that’s exciting. 

Bianca: Well, uh, I think we should keep an eye on colour fonts and I think it’s kind of like the, the reason, you know, You mentioned really early on is like everyone is like hacking topography on the, on the web still.

So we had just serving images in order to like, make more exciting typography because it’s so to actually work around this. So what you can do with type at the moment is just that apply colour. And like, this is not very exciting if you go back and like, do some research into printing history, or just like go back to letters, like the kind of like options you have that, you know, to be expressive on the web.

Would be just like such a big thing, I think, but it’s so difficult at the moment we have Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, and Google, and they all thought like, okay, this emoji thing, like a few years ago, this emoji thing is actually going to go big. We need to like, be able to just have colourful emotions on the web.

So they are like, find a hat, just like did their own thing in order to make this like, make emojis available in a font format. So they needed to find out like, how can we get colours into fonts, which, you know, Fair enough, but you know, they all did this by themselves. They would implement it, their own thing.

And like, it wasn’t really adopted any, anywhere else. So like Google did their own thing for the Android emojis and like, everyone else did the same, but the history of the web 

Tom: right there, everyone does it say you’ve got to deal with it later. 

Bianca: Oh, such a mess. Anyway, none of these, none of these must were like super successful in a way, the one with the most potential was, I guess like Microsoft. So. Like after a few years of just like doing their own things. I think they all kind of like saw that like the couple of collaboration when it came to various performance was actually a really successful. 

So like, why would we do the same with colour fonts? So actually recently seemed to agree on like Microsoft’s proposal for California, which made, made it into the specification. And Google is at the moment, like working a lot on bringing this forward and just advancing it to like, or a new version that can do more. And it’s like, okay, compress the file size more. And, and, you know, and just, instead of just having like flat colours in layers in the font, it will be able to do like much more. So you can have like gradients and stuff that transparencies, which, you know, It’s fun for emojis.`And you want to like, what am I talking about this? I thought we’d talk about fonts, but basically because of emojis, it ended up in the specification, which means that typographers like me can also like, kind of like use this a little bit to our advantage and enefit from like emojis big boom, and can actually stop making phones that can do these kinds of things as well. 

Tom: I think that’s the kind of thing that you would often, you know, things are changing, what processes can do and what’s in specifications, changing in time and this kind of thing that you would always try and hack together with some crazy CSS and like mirroring elements on the page to get. Some kind of shadows and gradients or whatever it might be and using mosques to do this and that and the other. And yeah, it sounds fascinating. And essentially colourful. This is basically just a way to kind of different paths of the phone, right? So you can use multiple colours on the, on the font itself.

Bianca: Yeah, that’s it. So basically we would, we would supply layers of a font, like basically how we, how you would basically do this in any design software as well. So you would have a layer for production, a layer for the inline and layer for the outline and for B for the extra beat of the letter.

And it would assign colours to it, which you should be able to overwrite as well. Ideally because otherwise, or tactics dentists are a very special breed. We like to think in like black and white, I feel a little bit uncomfortable with like making these kind of like coloured decisions. But yeah, I think as long as everyone’s is able to just say like, okay, Bianca, this is stupid.  And I just don’t think that should be fine. 

 Tom: I had no idea there was a link with emojis there. And so you sort of suggesting that because obviously when we think about fun, we think about the letters and stuff, but then there might be a thing in the future where emojis don’t become like a craft. Like they were in saying, it’s her page. You could actually kind of make your own emojis using some kind of colour font. Is that, that way that’s headed or is that not quite working? 

Bianca: Well, I don’t know. I guess you could have some kind of modular emoji. I think the plan of the people who are working on emoji funds at the moment is still to have like their own set.

Because if you look at the differences between them, like, you know, Google is like really squishy and friendly. They used to have this blobby thing, but it’s still like really cute. If you look at the animals, for example, and if you compare that to like Apple’s or Twitter’s, they have a very different expression. So I think they’re inserting a lot of like their own, like, you know, brand identity values into like emojis as well. So yeah, maybe they’re going to be like open source emoji farms. 

Tom: Yeah. They have first and the same, same thing we were talking about variable funds is the control of the colours. Just control for the same methods we’ve always been using for, you know, a decade or so now star sheets, that kind of thing. 

Bianca: Yeah it shouldn’t derive very much from there. Similarly, you can also just apply the colours with the CSS. As I said, is all work in progress, but they are working on it a lot at the moment, but I, I can’t, I don’t know when, when this is going to be like release ready.

Tom: Cool. Well, I’ll definitely keep my eye open for that. That sounds really cool I mean, both of those things, you talked about give so much power to the kind of well, just that overlap between what’s sitting in sketch or Photoshop or whatever you’re using. And then what appears on a, on a screen somewhere. I mean, that’s kind of disappeared now or is on the way .

Bianca: The overlap between variable fonts and colour fonts is going to be quite interesting as well, because you can have variable colour fonts or so you can have the colour on or on, you know, on an axis as well. 

Tom: Yeah, Wow I like that.  So the last thing we talked about was kind of typing out to me and how that relates to accessibility, which is something that we think about a lot, especially when you’re designing experiences that engage with people and help them achieve their goals and type plays a big part in that. So, so what’s your take on that? 

Bianca: Well, I’m being asked this a lot, actually, I think people think there’s like this golden rule, like this typeface, this the most accessible one. But again, I think this is quite, quite personalised and it, it depends on like who is reading the text, but there are some things that we know work quite well for people who have reading difficulties.

And that is just like, basically making each letter not look like another letter in the alphabet. So if you have an uppercase, I from Helvetica, for example, and compare it to the lowercase L from Helvetica is almost exactly the same. It’s, it’s sometimes tricky to identify that just on the run. So, you know, making the lowercase L of a censor of typeface different from the application. I is kind of like a no-brainer. So this is like one of those things, like, make it, make it a little bit of a like hockey stick shape, or in order to just like help with these kinds of things. And then there are like other kind of like parameters that you can dial up and down that might make a bit of a difference, especially for people with reading difficulties.

So you would want to have like, kind of. As much white space inside a letter as possible in order to make. Identifying each net Netter easier for people. So if you, for example, have a protest type typeface, like Helvetica, I’m not shitting over my habit.

It’s just like, it’s just an example that just came to mind. But basically if you look at the anatomy of like the lowercase E are kind of the. The bottom part really comes up towards the top pole a lot, which just closes up the white space that is inside the letter and it makes it difficult to read. So if you open up the letter a little bit and have like more of a human is contract construction, it helps identifying these kinds of letters.

So, you know, these kinds of like type of graphics that have the bowl on the bottom, it’s like this arm on the top versus one that you, you know, used to learn to write in school, like yeah. The second one, if you compare it to an O in the same type face, but often is quite similar.

It just like has like this little stroke on the side. Again, if your eyes are not working that well, or if you’re not that good at reading, this might make a big difference to you. It might just like stop your reading flow. And you have to concentrate, identify the letter, then stop it, that whole word again.

Or maybe the whole sentence again, it’s just like trying to make it more comfortable for people to read. And so these kinds of things, having like a larger X side, so that the height of the lowercase letters. If we just like, make them a little bit taller without being distracting, the tall, it helps with legibility as well for kind of like weight that you’re using as well.

Obviously don’t use the black, don’t use for the copy that doesn’t make any sense. t kind of like needs to have a nice rhythm. It needs to have a comfortable, like, then with that, you are kind of like used to like everything that is not, everything is too much out of the ordinary is probably gonna be distracting.

I’m a typeface designer so I get a kick out of  designing are interesting different versions of question marks, which you know, is fun for me, but I should really leave that as a hobby forrbody copy. That’s just going to be distracting and it’s not going to be helpful.

I remember this, this episode when I was a student in Germany. And I really started getting into typography and I had this assignment where I had to design this book. I was just like an antifouling paint for ships. Anyway, I, I was so excited about like just choosing fond spots, really exciting for me.

And so I, I found discretionary ligatures, which are, you know, not just  the usual ligatures of like F and I. You know, going together, but it had  these extra sushi ones. So we had like combination spare, like the top of the S we’ll connect to the team next to it. And I loved all of this stuff and it was just amazing.

And my book is gonna look so good. And then, you know, everything was printed. The assignment was done. I got my grade, I went back home and showed it to my dad. And he was just the what’s this letter. And I was just like, that’s an a T what do you mean? And he was just like, I would have never guessed that.So like everything that is just like a little bit. Strange to people is not helping. If you, if you’re designing for like reading. 

Tom: And as opposed to being, being aware of what people are expecting, because it’s nice to be fancy every now and then, and kind of they stuff like that.

But as far as using it in the instance where it’s mostly trouble for, for the kind of, for the person that’s ordering it, you know? 

Bianca: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There’s also a lot of geometric typefaces. They have similar shapes within different letters. So this example that I had of the single story, a like if you just like, look at the top of the letter and compare it to like the G in a tight place like this, it might be exactly the same. It looks like copy pasted the same for a Q as well, a lowercase cue. It might look exactly the same. The problem with this is , it looks nice and it looks  really neat and kind of  reduced and minimalist, but. In texts. It’s not very helpful because we get most of the information about a letter form from the top part of the normal case letters. So if you, if you would remove  the bottom part of the letters, you will probably still be able to read those words probably slower than usual, but you would still be able to read the words. If you remove the top part of those letters, it’s really almost impossible. You get things that could look like an N, or any kind of letter with, with no additional context. So we kind of need the top part to be quite distinctive. So keeping that in mind as well is quite helpful. And just  you know, you see other typefaces for like larger headlines or smaller paragraphs, which, you know, it’s fine for these kinds of environments.

Tom: So the, I think the message that you’re sending is it’s kind of down to, to designers or developers or whoever is implementing stuff for copy on screen for long form to like, to be aware of that kind of stuff. Right. And just be, you know, accessibility is great and making sure there’s contrast and all the kind of standard things that we talk about but there’s another layer they can go into if they want to provide an even better experience for the people reading, reading long form copy online, and then that’s the kind of stuff they should be aware of. Or are you blaming that on designers? 

Bianca: Yes, definitely. No. I wanted to just like add a little bit of a disclaimer because  the, the differences might be great on an individual level. So if you show a text set in one font and another font to the same person, they might have a strong preference depending on like, their own personal situation.But yeah. Like overall, if you would collect data by user testing, it might not, you know, your peer project is not going to fail if you use Helvetica that in the end of the day  

Tom: Thanks so much for that. That’s been really interesting stuff. I’ve actually learned loads of those on to go and do a bit more, reading on some of these things and figure out how we can start using some of this additional design in depth. Thanks so much for coming in, you didn’t come in anyway, we’re sat in different houses speaking online. Thanks for taking the time to come and chat about this today. I guess the first thing is tell people what I can find you online,  to explore more of the stuff you write and just find a bit more about those. Some more. 

Bianca: Yeah. Uh, you could find,  but you can’t find me anymore. I removed myself from social media posts from LinkedIn.

You can probably still find me. And you would also find like, you know, idea of like what I’m writing about third. Type of studio I’m working for Dalton Maag.  You can find it under Daltonmaag.com  If you want to look at like some of the stuff I was writing down, you can also go to my personal brand. So it would just be berning.com.

Not with whether you and yeah, that’s very fine me. And just give me a shout. I always like to talk type with anyone, at any time of the day. So I’d be happy if people reached out. 

Tom: So it sort of gets we’ll put those links in the show notes. Yeah. Thanks so much for,  for trying to speed state, uh, look forward to finding out more about all this in the future. 

Bianca:  Thanks for having me!